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[hogsmeadewkends]
27 February 2005 @ 01:59 pm
DEBATE  
Hey all this is the debate for this Hogsmeade Weekend. I ask that ONLY the debators comment in this post, and if anyone would like to make another post for others to talk about the debate then they may, but please only one extra post.

Our debators are as follows:
Hufflepuf - saffia_saffric
Gryffindor - shakiracrazy
Slytherin - gracelessis
Ravenclaw - calliopeia17


I will also not be online for the time that this is going on...I am leaving clean instructions for all of you.

Here we go...

CoS was our first look at what the Potterverse called Squibs. We also find out from JK Rowling that someone comes into their magic late, thus making the assumption that a known Squib will become a Wizard.
The debate is this: Who is said Squib? How does he or she (as we find that there IS a female squib later in the series that is known) come into their magic (and please nothing too marysue/fanfiction-y)? And what role will this person play? Is this person for the light or a death eater because of how they've been treated because of their squibdom? Lastly, once you all have your set character and have made your initial comments answering the above questions in detail, you will earn even more points if you can argue AGAINST why someone elses character wouldn't be the person to come into their magic late. You will also then be able to defend your character, but you must make new points, and not just repeat the points made in your initial comment. PS: If you happen to pick the same character as another debator, you will earn double points for each original comment againt that character. Also be warned, no going back and forth in each others comments with the same arguments...they must be original points to count, and that goes for ALL the debators. If a point is already mentioned, you can not use it again against that character.

The debate will last until 6pm EST or until all points are argued out. If this happens (as most likely will be the case) please do not keep commenting asking if you can stop the debate. Just stop. I will be on after 6pm to total the points and see what's going on. I know there are prefects, coprefects, mods, and prefect hopefulls that will watch to make sure that drama is NOT started in this debate.

Finally I hope you all have fun.

Juppy
Mayor of Hogsmeade
 
 
Current Mood: cheerful
 
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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:28 pm (UTC)
We also find out from JK Rowling that someone comes into their magic late, thus making the assumption that a known Squib will become a Wizard.

My answer to this question is going to be based on the idea that assuming that it is a known squib who will come into their magic late is nothing more than an assumption. Rather, I am going to argue that it will be Petunia Dursley who will come into magical power.

JK Rowling has declared that Petunia is not a squib, stating "You might have got the impression that there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye, and you will find out what it is. She is not a squib, although that is a very good guess. Oh, I am giving a lot away here. I am being shockingly indiscreet," at the Edinburgh Book Festival (From the jkrowling.com online transcript). Petunia cannot be a squib- according to JKR's official definition of the word, on her website, she states, "A Squib is almost the opposite of a Muggle-born wizard: he or she is a non-magical person born to at least one magical parent. Squibs are rare; magic is a dominant and resilient gene." It is this latter point that I am going to argue.

Obviously Petunia is not a squib- she was born into a Muggle family, and is not expected to have magic. However, the magical gene is "dominant and resilient." Much discussion has ensued over JKR's scientific background, or lack thereof; explaining magical ability as a single gene does not fit well with current scientific knowledge. However, on a less particular basis, she is a non-magical person who has an extremely magically powerful sister. It is well within the realm of possiblility that she come into her power late, after neglecting or ignoring it for years.

(Argument continued in following post)

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:37 pm (UTC)
I disagree that Petunia will be the squib who will come into power.

First off, even if she was as magically talented as Dumbledore, due to her profound and intense dislike of magic she'd rather hide it forever.

I can see, in your defense, that if she really hated Wizadry, even when Dumbledore sent her that Howler stating 'Remember my last.' that she would have shunted Harry out.

But Petunia couldn't be titled a squib either way because her parents are muggles. Your quoting JKR on what she said of Petunia was good research and I give you props, but I don't think it possible that Petunia could be a squib that would come into power and use her magic for either good or bad because, I mean, wouldn't that sort of spoil Harry's safe haven?

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:44 pm (UTC)
due to her profound and intense dislike of magic she'd rather hide it forever.

In my continued argument below, I pointed out that Petunia would likely only come into her magic in the defense of her family. However, I think that this is a likely possibility.

Furthermore, I didn't say that Petunia was a squib; however, I did point out that JKR did not specifically say that it would be a Squib who would come into power.

I don't think that your argument about spoiling Harry's safe haven is valid; if it did, it certainly wouldn't be convenient for Harry, but that wouldn't stop it from happening. Having Umbridge, or Crouch, or Quirrell at Hogwarts spoiled Harry's safe haven there, and that didn't stop it from happening. You can't argue that something wouldn't happen because it would keep Harry from being safe.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:08 pm (UTC)
Now now, I didn't say that it would stop Harry from being safe. I said that it would ruin his safe-haven.

Dumbledore performed a secret-keeper spell with Number 4, Privet Drive so that no one could ever find Harry there, even if the had their nose pressed against the glass.

No, JKR never said that squibs would come into power late, but in the rules and questions to this debate that was said, so I'm sticking my argument onto the fundamentals of this debate.

Yes in the defense of her family, if Petunia had magical powers, she would definitely use them. But her family wouldn't be hurt because they, along with Harry, are protected by the secret-keeper spell I've already mentioned. If the world turned to turmoil, don't you think she'd like to have her family protected? I don't think she has or will have any magic.

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:24 pm (UTC)
And I argued that ruining his safe haven is not a valid reason for something not to happen. The secret keeper spell at Privet Drive did not protect Harry from being attacked by Dementors; there is no reason whatsoever to believe that it would protect him from much more than a direct attack by Voldemort on the house itself. Similarly, there is no reason to believe that the secret keeper spell will work to protect the Dursleys utside of the huse itself. They are not hermits. There is plently of opportunity for then to be attacked outside of the building, or even lured out of the house and attacked.

in the rules and questions to this debate that was said

The question of the debate made an assumption that I thought was invalid, and, indeed, extremely unlikely. I don't think it's even reasonable to assume that because JKR said someone was going to come into their power late, that person had to be a squib. I think it's much more likely that someone who hasn't been around magic her entire life would come into power, than for a squib who's been trying for a long time to find magical ability would suddenly, miraculously, manage to do so.

[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:37 pm (UTC)
Petunia has spent her entire life avoiding her potential, whether out of fear of it, or jealousy of her sister, or any number of possible reasons. She would not attempt to use this power without great cause- and I would imagine that no cause would be as great in Petunia's mind as saving the life of her son. In fact, I can think of no less reason. We have seen that Dark Wizards and enemies of Harry have begun to take action against him while he is at Privet Drive; it is easy to imagine a more direct attack on Harry while he is at the Dursley's, and in the event of such an attack, I think it would be quite likely that Petunia would attempt to use her latent magic to protect her family.

I cannot imagine that Petunia would fight for any side other than that of the light. Though she has not been a particularly nice person, she is not evil, and she did come through for Harry at the beginning of OotP, after the Dementors' attack. Furthermore, because the only real cause I can see for her coming into her powers is an attempt to protect her family from the Dark, it would hardly make sense for her to fight on any side other than that which opposes it.

Furthermore, I will argue that it is highly unlikely that any Squib in the Wiazrding World would come into their powers late. These people have grown up with magic, they have seen it around them their entire lives, and they have spent all their lives trying to come into greater power. (For example, Filch and his Kwikspell course.) If these people had ANY latent magic, they would have found it already. Petunia, not wanting magic, or having been around it very often, is a much more likely candidate for having latent powers.
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:49 pm (UTC)
I agree that she would fight for the light if she had any powers, ever.

Yes she came through for Harry at the beginning of OotP, but she displayed no ability for magic. JKR is one to give us clues. She has always given us clues to what's going to happen next so that, in the case of, if we were ever to go and read the previous books and then say "hey, it's weird that Harry can't talk to snakes, he could in the 1st book.." she would look bad as an author. JKR knows everything that is happening, has happened, or will ever happened. If she meant to make Petunia come to power, sometime in the 5th book she would have said something fishy. Especially in the 5th book since it was a book of so many revelations. Therefore, Petunia is not the said squib that will come to power because she has displayed nothing questionable (aside from being nice to Harry after the Dementor attack, yes it was strange she knew what they were, but her sister was very involved in that anyway since she was in the original Order). Petunia would also never admit it, and she has taken no steps toward accepting the Wizarding world.

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:18 pm (UTC)
Of course she hasn't revealed any ability for magic! That's the entire point; she's going to suddenly discover that ability in herself, rather than have already had it before. I think all the clues we need to discover that there is something fishy about Petunia are that she has a much greater knowledge of the wizarding world than we previously thought -i.e. knowing about the Dementors - she is the sister of an extremely powerful witch, and JKR herself has declared tha "there is a little bit more to Aunt Petunia than meets the eye". That's more evidence than we usually have for predictions about future events!

Also, she may not have taken steps towards accepting the wizarding world, but I don't think that her having magical power would require her fully accepting said power. I think Petunia would be very, very reluctant to accept it. Also, I don't think that Petunia came into power IN the 5th book- I think she will come into power sometime in the future, and the evnts of the 5th book are hints as to that future.
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:38 pm (UTC)
I didn't say she'd have to come to power in the 5th book. I said we'd have received our clues by now.
I agree that her knowing about dementors and having Harry stay may as well be clues enough for her case.
But I remain firm to the fact that, she will not be the said squib (as it is stated in the terms for this debate) to be the one to come to power and fight for the light or dark with magic. She may play a pivitol role in the future for keeping Harry safe in her house (the only safe place in the world for him), but she will not be the one to come out with magic.

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 10:51 pm (UTC)
I, as I've said before, strongly disagree with the letter of the debate rules, and feel that I'm firmly staying within the spirit of those rules by arguing in favor of Petunia rather than someone who is officially a squib. I've stated a number of clues in my favor, in particular a direct statement from JKR that there is more to Petunia than meets the eye. Overall, though, I just think it's considerably more likely that Petunia come into power than ANYONE who grew up in a magical world, struggling to gain powers that they simply don't have, like Filch.
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:29 pm (UTC)
Argus Filch, my character
I assume I'll be beginning this debate.

My said squib is Argus Filch.
I believe that he will most definitely be coming into his magic sometime before the end of the series because it has already been aformentioned that he is taking a kwikspell course in order of learning magic.
He will play the role of accomplice to Voldemort. That he will be the insider at Hogwarts with endless information for Voldy as Snape is the mole for Dumbledore.
I believe that he will be for the death eaters because of his quick decision to assist Umbridge in the 5th book. No person that has any loyalty to Dumbledore would have assisted Umbridge. It is obvious he detests students and wishes to make all those who have magic miserable.

Image
[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
I think it is unlikely that Filch would all of a sudden come into his power due to his Kwikspell course, as it appears that said course has not worked for him. He already took the course, and is still a squib- it's not likely that all of a sudden, it would start to work. Why wouldn't it have worked before? What would suddenly change?

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:51 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Perhaps he won't ever learn magic from the Kwikspell course, but the fact the he took it is still there. JKR wouldn't say that he's taken the Kwikspell course and then never mention it again if it didn't have something to do with coming events.

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
The fact that he took the Kwikspell course reveals that he is a squib, and provides insight into his personality and jealousy of wizarding students. It does not necessarily signify that he is miraculously going to become magical in the next two books. It could quite easily have a plot function other than that, if it even does. The Kwikspell course has already more or less served its plot purpose.
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Yes I agree. I mentioned the Kwikspell course because that is how we found out Filch is a squib. I didn't intend to use the kwikspell course for his means of becoming magical or being introduced as magical. The kwikspell course was only part of this to prove that what will happen to Filch it is in the works for future books. With that, let the kwik spell statement die.

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:27 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Fair enough. But you've offered no other proof of any reason Filch might come into power, aside from having taken a Kwikspeel course. If not that, then what? What would suddenly trigger his magic after trying all his life to have some? That's why I really think it's unlikely that Filch is the squib we're looking for.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw
[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:12 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
I doubt that the Kwikspell course did anything for Filch, and was merely JK Rowling's way of illustrating the fact that squibs are more common then we think. That's neither here nor there, however.

How would Filch come into his powers? The fact he tossed/stopped taking the Kwikspell course, to me, says that it had no effect on him. He lives within Hogwarts, perhaps the most magical place in Europe, but it doesn't seem to help his powers any. And since he's an established Squib, it's not like he would be hiding abilities he already has.

I don't disagree that he'd be an insider at Hogwarts, playing a mole, but how would he get the information out to his master without any magical aid? Him sending or recieving owls would be suspicious, and easily stopped, and since he lacks magic, he'd probably need help to use a fire or any other magical means of communication. Surely one of the children of a Death Eater would be, at the very least, easier.

Tori, Slytherin
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:17 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
As it stands he is not a magical character.
But in OotP we all saw a side of Filch that we never really thought there. The fact that he really does like to whip children on magic and the fact that he'd easily betray Dumbledore for someone who will give him what he wants.

I think it very possible that Voldemort would be able and willing to give Filch magic. I think that Filch would be an eager recipient and participant in and of Voldemort's plans and power.

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[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:33 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Oh, an interesting suggestion, actually- though possibly a bit more far-fetched than I'd like. Consider for a moment, two things.

1. Filch is obviously not a very mice person. However, Dumbledore appears to trust him- he wouldn't be there if Dumbledore didn't- and I trust Dumbledore.

2. Voldemort's supporters are largely pureblood supremacists who would have very little patience for a squib. I highly doubt that squibs are looked very highly upon in that particular subculture, and I think it would be very odd if the purebloods decided to sudden;y accept someone who they clearly believe to be beneath them. Furthermore, why would Voldemort bother with a servant who he had to perform powerful and difficult spells on -assuming such spells are even possible, but I'll let that go for now- when he has half a House full of young, powerful, Slytherin devotees itching to take the Dark Mark and join him. Voldemort has no shortage of supporters, even within Hogwarts? Why would he bother with a Squib?
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Yet Dumbledore can make mistakes, and we saw that in OotP.

Don't you think that the Death Eaters would use Filch? Use him to their advantage then dispose of him seems highly likely. I don't think the Death Eaters would ever actually accept him as a Death Eater.
[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:13 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Yes, Dumbledore can make mistakes, but I was under the impression that Filch had been there for longer then Dumbledore. I believe his alliance is to Hogwarts, not to any particular headmaster. This would explain his quick conversion to Umbridge, who positioned herself as controller of Hogwarts.

I could see them using Filch, yes, but that's no reason to when they have so many other possibilities other then some powerless squib. They have pureblood children that could be given the same tasks Filch could be, and the kids would probably do better. We see Harry sneaking around a lot, there's no reason to think that the Slyherins don't do the same.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:17 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Yes, I was under that impression also. However, if Dumbledore didn't trust Filch and thought he may be a threat he would have fired him. Dumbledore cares more about the safety of his students than about anything.

Yes, but Filch has much more advantages. He is able to get into closer contact with the teachers of Hogwarts, and that is what really matters to Voldemort- getting access to information about Dumbledore.
[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:24 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
[Sorry for my previous delays in response, had to run flowers to a friend]

Agreed, so Dumbledore mustn't see Filch as a threat. Yes, I know, he's made mistakes in the past, but with new teachers. Not with old, longstanding caretakers. Also, Filch may not interact with the teachers too much. They don't seem to like him all too much, and it's not as if he sits in on their classes like students do, waiting for something to slip out. Also, I'd imagine that the teachers are very private, magically locking their doors or whathaveyou, denying Filch access to those. So really, Filch has no spy advantages, other then being in Hogwarts a lot. And the students share that advantage.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:27 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
But Filch is so often overlooked, so that is an advantage to the Death Eaters. The teachers don't worry much about Filch because they do not think he is capable of much damage.

Filch knows the school better than anyone, "perhaps except the Weasleye twins". He knows all of the secret passages, all hidden doors and where the moving staircases lead. He could easily use this knowledge to spy on The Order inside Hogwarts.
[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 10:56 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
I think a student is probably able to get much closer to the teachers themselves than Filch is. The teachers have to interact with their students on a daily basis; they probably don't talk to Filch much more often than staff meetings.

But I think what it comes down to is that Dumbledore wouldn't let Filch remain if he believed that he was a security risk.

Furthermore, even if Filch was a slightly more practical spy than students, their slightly less useful place is balanced out by the fact that Voldemort would have to use huge amounts of power to gove Filch magic, if such was even possible.

And ultimately, what it really comes down to is that the concept of Voldemort being able to give a Squib magic is so incredibly far fetched and unlikely that I'm not even totally sure we should have considered the idea in the first place. That wouldn't be someone coming into their magic late; that would be the artificial initiation of magic into someone essentially nonmagical.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 11:04 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
I'll be the first to admit that Filch gaining powers is far-fetched, but his disloyalty towards Dumbledore may play a part in later events.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:38 pm (UTC)
Re: Argus Filch, my character
Though your idea is a bit out-there, it makes sense.

JKR has plotted every bit of information needed to make this happen in the future, she's good at doing that. I'm sure Filch would love the idea of Hogwarts being taken over.
[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:34 pm (UTC)

It is my personal belief that the squib will be Petunia. I believe she's already come into her magic, based on evidence found in the Order of the Pheonix. For one, she has the same background as Lily, who, as we obviously know, is a witch. In Order of the Pheonix, we see that Petunia has a lot more contact with the wizarding world than we previously believed, allowing us to see a different side of her. It's very possible that she grew up a squib, which led to her hate of Lily and everything the wizarding world stands for. I believe that she came into her magic late, possibly with the birth of Dudley or the death of Lily and James, and Dumbledore is keeping her secret in exchange for her watching Harry. As displayed in OOTP, chapter two, the person who sent the howler obviously has some hold on her. She must have some motivation to keep Harry, and what better motivation then keeping her life normal, her husband loving her normal self, and her son safe. Again, in Order of the Pheonix, Dumbledore says, "she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you"... But what did Petunia gain with this pact? I believe she gained the ability to live the life she'd created for herself, with her wizard-hating family none-the-wiser.
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:40 pm (UTC)
You ommited who sent her the Howler. Dumbledore sent her that Howler. Dumbly's got hold on everyone. Perhaps she needs to keep him safe in order for him to save the world?

What she got out of that pact was the ability to keep the world normal and out of the control of Voldemort.

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[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 07:47 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry, I thought I had added that in the end bit. My apologies, I seem to have missed it.

I doubt Petunia has any personal interest in saving the world, and the fear she shows in 'A Peck of Owls' is more for herself then the fate of the world. Dumbly has a personal hold on her, as the fear she showed was personal fear, fear for herself. Also, explaining the whole 'keep the world safe' thing would be simple to explain to Vernon when the boy was young, even if he didn't believe it. Vernon has no clue about the leverage Dumbly holds over Petunia.

"What is this?" Uncle Vernon said hoarsely, "What--I don't-- Petunia?"

Tori, Slytherin
[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:00 pm (UTC)
Vernon is a very ignorant man. C'mon, he thought he could squash the magic right out of Harry.

Petunia grew up surrounded by magic. It is apparent that she would know much more about the community than Vernon could ever imagine.

It's a fair point to say that she would be afraid of revealing her 'curse', but it isn't plausible. Petunia, first off, isn't a said squib. She is a said muggle. In fact, she is a said Wizard racist.

It seems only natural she would have saved Vernon from the knowledge of Voldemort because he is a scrady cat and would have- indubitably- thrown Harry right out if he knew that he could be the demise of his whole family.

Doesn't it seem apparent that Petunia would save the fact of Voldy from Vernon because she knows so much of both the Magical community and her own dim husband to fortell that he would kick Harry right out, despite the world's demise or whatever?

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[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:23 pm (UTC)
Squishy Harry! *g* ...ahem.

How'd she grow up surrounded by magic? Lily may have been a witch, but I doubt she'd be bringing too many friends home. Her parents may have been proud of her, but since Petunia seems to have distanced herself from Lily and her world... Well, I doubt she'd know as much as she seems to simply by having a witch sibling.

Are we sure that she's a muggle? She may be a wizard racist, which is, well, obvious, but that would just be more reason to hide her powers. The seed of racism is fear, afterall. Finding out you're what you've hated, loathed and feared for so long is shocking, and definately worth hiding or ignoring. (at least from a Dursley's perspective)

But if Dumbledore is forcing Petunia to hold this pact to keep the world safe, Vernon would be more willing to keep Harry, I believe. Doing his duty, or something. As it stands, Harry is a hindrance to Vernon. He keeps him because his wife wants him to. His wife won't tell him why, because it reveals she knows more about that icky wizarding stuff than she should. Vernon, on second thought, seems rather whipped.

She may keep Voldemort from Vernon to keep him unafraid, that's a very good point, but I disagree. Vernon must know how Harry's parents really died, even if they kept up the car crash ruse for the relatives. And, since he knows that, he knows of Voldemort. If there'd really been a car crash, there would have been authorities involved. Even Vernon knows that. It's sort of like the St. Brutus story, something horrible to distract from the acutal magical story.

Tori, Slytherin
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:03 pm (UTC)
Let's think about it for a moment. Where would Petunia's magic come from? There is the obviously Lily connection, but if genes had anything to do with magic then one of the Evans' ancestors must have had magical powers.

How do know that there is even a "magic" gene? Wouldn't it be more of a state of mind, someone more willing to believe in the impossible? Lily seems to me to have been a dreamer, not Petunia at all.

JKR did in fact say that there is more to Petunia, but that doesn't automatically mean that she has powers. Petunia could very well play an important role as Harry's protector, helping him in the Muggle world. In OotP, she showed the potential by the affection she showed for Harry.
[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:16 pm (UTC)
JK Rowling once described Magic as a dominant gene, I believe. Not terribly good science, but I doubt it's just a state of mind. There has to be something physical about it, or else squibs like Filch would be able to use it.

No, it doesn't automatically mean that she has powers. But it's definately a possibility, especially when one looks at the character building Petunia experienced in OOTP. We saw an entirely new side of her.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:22 pm (UTC)
I just don't think it relies entirely on science. Magic defies the laws of science everyday when feathers float and crumpets are made out of thin air. I do firmly believe that a state of mind does have something to do with magic.

But that side was the side that showed she cared for Harry to an extent. It was the side that she knew more about the wizarding world than she lead on. However, she knew about the wizarding world because Lily was her sister, not because she actually posesses said powers. She overheard Lily and James having a conversation, that could easily explain everything else.
[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:28 pm (UTC)
The direct quote is "Squibs are rare; magic is a dominant and resilient gene," according to JKR- obviously not good science, but the rough impression is relevant.

I wouldn't argue that Petunia's knowledge is proof of her powers- personally, I don't believe that her powers have manifested yet. But I would argue that her knowledge suggests that she has been more in contact with Dumbledore than we were previously aware. On JKR's website, she says that Dumbledore sent Petunia multiple letters before leaving Harry at her doorstep. There is something going on with Petunia, and her having dormant magic seems to be a pretty good bet.

Calliopeia, Ravenclaw.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:37 pm (UTC)
It just seems so unlikely that magic is based solely on science. It seems to me that JKR was just relating magic to something we as humans know and understand. That way, it's easier to explain.

She could have powers, but she also could not. I just don't think there is enough information to back this up. She had contact with Dumbledore, but couldn't this mean that they were establishing Harry's place in her household? She houses Harry, of course there is going to be correspondence with Dumbledore.

[identity profile] calliopeia17.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 10:47 pm (UTC)
I simply think it's more likely that Petunia, as someone who has magical relatives but is NOT a squib, develops magical power than a squib, who lives in a magical world but is permanently unable to do magic, as you yourself argued.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 11:02 pm (UTC)
Sorry for the delay, I wasn't notified of the replies until now >.<

It is definately more likely, but not entirely possible. I still think there is a lot of doubt that I have stated surrounding this idea.
[identity profile] gracelessiv.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:31 pm (UTC)
Well, yes, I agree that magic defies the laws of science, however JK states on her website that Magic, so far as being passed down, is a "Squibs are rare; magic is a dominant and resilient gene." (www.jkrowling.com/textonly/extrastuff_view.cfm?id=19) Belief of said magic may play into it, but when it's there... it's there, even if you don't believe in it. At least, that's the impression I have of it.

She may have overheard Lily and James having a conversation about it, but I doubt it would spark such a reaction in her! Returning yet again to that second chapter (I know, I know, I'm beating Bob The Dead Horse) ..She practically faints at Dumbledore's threat. That's not fear-of-the-world-ending, which is an abstract concept to most people, that's personal fear. She may know about the wizarding world by overhearing a conversation, but... not that much, from a single conversation.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 09:43 pm (UTC)
As I said before, I don't think magic relies solely on science. There's more to it than that, but I will admit that science does play a part in magic.

There must have been more conversations, and more observations. We cannot fool ourselves into thinking that she overheard only one conversation and knows about everything else in the wizarding world because she has powers. She knows about the wizarding world because her sister was a witch. Petunia said that she had seen Lily "turning teacups into rats". She was not totally ignorant of everything, but this does not mean she has powers. It just means that she knows more than she lets on, and this knowledge will play a part in the books. Not necessarily any powers she may have.
[identity profile] shakiracrazy.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:25 pm (UTC)
We also find out from JK Rowling that someone comes into their magic late, thus making the assumption that a known Squib will become a Wizard.

We know that Neville Longbottom came into magic later on in his years. His first sign of magical powers was him bouncing when he was dropped out of a two-story window. Yet this does not mean that he was ever a Squib.

I believe a Squib is a person born of magical parents, but will never gain magical powers. Therefore, I will not be picking a character.
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[identity profile] saffic-saffric.livejournal.com on February 27th, 2005 08:47 pm (UTC)
Aw man.

I've got to go a bit early everyone!

It's been a lot of fun, I'll try my hardest to be back before 5:10!!

Keep it up, this is so interesting.
TTYL

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