What an interesting topic! For me it is without doubt gay rights and religion. I'm not getting into gay rights unless someone else starts the discussion - I'm a bit too opionated about that - but I can say something about religion.

It interests me that in HP world they celebrate Christmas, but they also have the yule ball - it sort of reminds me of Finland where Christianity and old pagan ways still somewhat coexist. I can't see Christianity as a large part of the wizarding world, though, more a thing of the Muggleborn. Then again, Christians might view it differently; I am of no religion, but lean towards paganism.

What do you think of the way people replace "oh God" with "oh Merlin" etc in fics? Would it be possible to use "oh gods"?


Delfeus / Slytherin

Yes I noticed that as well and it got me thinking about the roll of religion in the magical world. I'm incredibly disappointed at the lack of international knowledge provided by the books - its all speculation. We dont even know about Voldemorts influence on places outside of Great Britain beyond "likely the most powerful wizard alive next to Dumbledore" - which doesn't tell us anything.

I bring this up because one of the trademark things about religion is that its always different; everywhere. Not to say that religion is wrong, but if one group has it right than all the others must be wrong, correct?

I can't see a wizard being wrong about an entire belief system.
Because of that, I just dont think its feasible to say that there is religion in the magical world.


Then of course there’s lots of little things that support my theory from the books (or at least i think they do).

Perhaps its my 'muggle mind' that’s limiting me, but the items in the department of mysteries doesn’t seem to be something that is possible with a deity. A veil that traps your entire being (including soul) for all eternity? You'll never get out of there, always be stuck in limbo. Its like a portable Hell (quite literally). Or a bubble that turns back time. I understand that the soul is eternal, but what about a 'dis-aging' soul? Will it eventually disappear? Does one get the Christian "original sin" back? What if only half the body went back in time (as that death eater most unfortunately experienced)? I fear that the only answer to these questions is "shut up stop asking questions and have some faith"... which isnt the wizarding way.


Great, I write an essay at 3am...

Susan // Ravenclaw

Indeed. Because of the Britain-focus of the books, I am actually a bit sceptical about the most powerful wizard things and Voldemort's influence. I mean, I can understand it in Britain and perhaps in Europe in general, but what about Australia? USA and Canada? Asia? Does it really reach that far? After all, we know nothing of the wizarding societies in those places and I can't really imagine that the three European schools are the only wizarding schools and witches and wizards don't exist elsewhere. And if there are other schools and wizarding communities, why would the most powerful wizards happen to born in Britain? Couldn't there be someone as powerful in China?

I think that there could be religion in the magical world, but which religions? How important is it? Is it a part of people's everyday lives and how? It is difficult for me to imagine the Weasleys going to church to listen to a sermon by a wizarding priest, for example. Despite the fact that they as a family remind me of a stereotype Christian family here, with lots of kids etc. Old pagan and superstitious ways would be more fitting, in my opinion.

I agree about the Veil. Although there are ways of going around that - "it was God's wish" "repent and God will let your soul move on" etc.


Delfeus / Slytherin

I suppose one could argue that magic is religions ally. In almost all religions there is a form of ‘magic’. Even the Catholics who have decided that magic doesn’t exist after the episode in the Middle Ages, still have a ‘magic fingerprint’ on their beliefs. But they all end up making the people with powers into gold-like creatures. That would be all fine and dandy except that muggles are sprouting up with this god-like talent at random which more-or-less defeats the concept of a ‘mortal’… unless we were to say that the Mrs. Doctor Granger is a common modern form of the Virgin Marry (or whatever similar person is in other religions?).

yeah i never thought it was fair that they never mention any wizarding schools in America in the HP books. are there none, or does Hogwarts just not associate with them? maybe JK is just showing her English pride or something by basically giving other countries the snub like that. and i wouldn't see how they could believe in religion like Christianity when they can do magic, i just tried not to think about it too hard and thought maybe they were just celebrating Christmas in the more all around secular just for fun way for the benefit of the Muggleborns, maybe, i don't think they leave Hogwarts and go to church. i dont know that much about Christianity, being Jewish but obviously all of the things you mention certainly are things in the wizarding world that would defy most religions. that is why a lot of people are against HP or ban the books or whatever, because witchcraft is not allowed in most religions.

Well, I think it's a bit like how in school at least here in Finland we learn Finnish history and European history, but practically nothing outside of Europe. It's just a focus on the closer areas; it doesn't mean that the other areas aren't important. In HP books the focus is on Britain, so other parts of the world aren't mentioned much; we don't even know that much about the schools that are mentioned, despite being shown the students. I think that it is likely that Hogwarts is more connected to the other European schools than to schools in USA, Australia or Asia - however, that doesn't mean that there are no schools elsewhere.

Well, I guess it depends on what kind of a Christian you are, but at least here in Finland most people are Evangelic Lutheran (umm... protestant, I believe) and don't really go to church. Even my very religious relatives don't usually go to church. Going to church is mainly for weddings, funerals, confirmations and Christmas. It always puzzles me when people speak about going to church every Sunday and not being very religious, as here even the most religious people don't do that. Well, I don't know about the smaller churches, they may have it different, and Laesthadians at least have some sort of meetings, but still. My ex friend's parents worked for the congregation and they didn't go to church just to listen to the sermons, either, despite being in charge of childrens' religious upbringing. So... at least for us Finns it would not be a problem to be a Christian and go to Hogwarts, at least missing church -wise. And people would probably find a way around magic, too, at least the non-fanatic ones.


Delfeus / Slytherin

...then again, there would also be the people who would refuse to send their children to a school of Devil worship. :P

Delfeus / Slytherin

But we also need to realize that Rowling cant put everything in her books. Its not always an issue of her caring or not caring to put it in, her editors make her take things out as well. I do know that the troll scene in the first books was supposed to come out and that she faught tooth-and-nail to keep it in. The book waw almost not published because of that scene.

On the same line of thinking, we also dont ever follow Harry while he's christmas shopping for his friends. We dont follow him in the shower or when/if he socializes with people of other houses (because he doesnt really, but he seems to know a lot about many of the characters. Either word-of-mouth is that powerful there, or he hangs out with a few Hufflepuffs every once-in-a-while.


Now dispite that, I seriously doubt that they cut Sunday short to get to a chappel or something lol.

And even if the editors don't step in, it's common sense to not add many things that have nothing to do with the plot of the book or the series in general; the books would be difficult to read and even longer than they are now. I has already been proven that there are other wizarding schools, so no point in going on about that unless the other schools not introduced become important to the plot.

Delfeus / Slytherin

I always make my muggleborn/part muggle/muggle raised/muggle characters say "Oh God" in fics, as opposed to "Oh Merlin" for the purebloods. Or "Oh Salazar" for Slytherins.

JellyBellys//Gryffindor

Gay rights is a huuuuuge issue for me too (I prefer to think of it as equality), but religion is also interesting.

I think that religion sort of filtered down into the wizarding world from the Muggles. There's so many muggleborns and halfbloods in Hogwarts that they almost have to take some of their culture with them. However, I don't think it really caught on the way it did in the Muggle world. A lot of religion is an attempt to explain the unexplainable and to answer the ultimate questions. Witches and wizards don't seem to have as many things to explain. For them, "magic" quite nicely sums it up. They're very aware of the power of the individual. If there IS any religious influence, I don't think it's huge. More likely it's a very personal thing, more spirituality than "religion".

Moon Faery//Slytherin

That was very nicely put. Good points. And well, I myself am more for spirituality than any organized religion... I have no beliefs set in stone, really.

Delfeus / Slytherin

I'm similar. I'm a solitary Wiccan - I have a general set of beliefs (God and Goddess, the connection of all things, et cetera), but I tend to handle the specifics according to what feels most right to me. A lot of organized religion sets so much store in sameness... Everyone prays the same way, believes the same way, lives the same way... I just can't understand how people can feel connected to their diety like that. (shrugs) Then again, that's why I'm solitary and not in a group!

Moon Faery//Slytherin

That's part of why I don't think highly of Christianity, or any religion for that matter. When it goes to some people telling others what to believe, it is already off course. Everyone should find their own Truths and never stop searching for new ways of seeing things; not blindly follow others. I mean, it puzzles me that people actually publish books of prayers - why does someone need them written for them? Don't they have any thoughts themselves?

The reason why I love Stigmata the movie is that it shows my view of Christianity well, the way it is and the way it should be. Especially the line: The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there. That goes for other religions as well. It's all about the search and your own thoughts.

I'm somewhat pagan-Christian, but I would never classify myself as Wiccan or anything, as I'm not interested in learning rituals etc to be able to believe in something. And by saying that I am something, I become colored by the actions of others with the same title, and I prefer to answer only for myself.

I believe that there are powers in Nature and I am somewhat animistic and panteistic, but my roots are so tied with Christianity that I am somewhat Christian as well. I tend to bash Christians, the sheep kind, but I would stand up and defend Christianity against attack if needed. Nature I don't even need to defend, as it is and exists and is a greater force than we are, although I wish people (including me) would stop hurting her. Some of my friends find it amusing when I save bugs or something from being crushed (especially as I'm pretty much the stereotype Evil Satan-worshipping Metalhead based on looks), but I seriously believe that they have as much right to live as we do. Perhaps even more - humans are the plague of the planet.

Mind if I friend you?


Delfeus / Slytherin

I know what you mean about the prayer books. We get them passed out at school all the time (non-religious junior college), and the people passing them out seem to think that only if you recite these words can you live a full and good life. It honestly scares me that some people actively try to surpress original thought. Stigmata is an excellent example of what I think Christianity was meant to be. A church is any place where two or more people gather in the name of god, according to the bible. How did Christians get so far away from that?

That's why I'm solitary. For me, ritual is like prayer, and spells are more of a focus on a goal. (Like the difference between "Thank you for all my blessings" and "please help me achieve this".) Candles, chants, incense... They facillitate putting yourself in a mindset to really connect with the divine essence, whether its simply for the connection or for a specific purpose. I think too many pagans have focused on the rituals and spellwork as an end unto themselves, because it's a visible sign of how separate we are from Christianity. It's sad... Religion should be about personal connection, not "see me, see me!"

I do the same thing with bugs. About the only time I'll squish them is if they pose a clear danger to myself or my family/pets. We have Shih Tzus (small dogs), so even a small spider of the right variety could kill them. I always feel teerible doing it, but I can't let my babies get hurt... And humans are a plague. If we don't straighten up our act and start caring for the world around us, we're going to deserve everything we've got coming. We don't even take care of our own and we're the only species that kills for pleasure. I just wish we wouldn't take out everything else with us. (sigh)

Moon Faery//Slytherin

I don't have anything more to say to this, except that I agree. :)

Delfeus / Slytherin

You raise a good point about religious families spawning witche and wizards. On top of everything you mentioned, I believe that child would probably be viewed as some demon child, one that isnt human. Unless they decided the child was 'the son of god', I dont see them trying to do anything other than kill the youth.

As for souls and the after-life. I'm torn on that issue.
dumbledore - to the great mind, death is but the next great adventure.
This can be taken either way, but I think Dumbledores trying to say that he believes that theres something on the 'other side'.
Ghosts mention 'the other side'.
The fact that you cant actually be imortal can be taken either way.
Voldemorts intense need to not die is interesting. But he's also grown up in the muggle world where people are obsessed with 'conquering god' or 'becoming god'.

...eh.... so there is an afterlife?

Socially it appears as if witches and wizards are living their life to the fullest and dont seem to have too much concern about the afterlife.

...so maybe theres no hell either?

Susan // Ravenclaw

Dumbledore said that it's the next great adventure...

Delfeus / Slytherin

He could be refering to death as a verb, not as an adjective.

Susan // Ravenclaw

Womens Rights: In the wizard world, it seems women are considered a lot more to be equals than in the Muggle world, (Ex. McGonagall) but they still always play second in command to men. (ex. McGonagall (again) Bellatrix, Umbridge)


I wonder what Wizards think of abortion and birth control?

JellyBellys//Gryffindor

I can't see at least Molly agreeing to abortion. And considering the fact that the wizarding society is smaller than the muggle one, they probably aren't too fond of abortion in general... more wizards into the world and all that.

Delfeus / Slytherin

Yep, I agree. I can see the hardcore Pureblood purists aborting squibs, however.

JellyBellys//Gryffindor

I read a fanfic that stated that old pureblood families used to throw their kids off a high rooftop to see if they had magic. If the kid survived than all was well, if it didnt then 'its better this way'.

Personally I can see that happening, expecially after Nevilles comment about his grandfather trying to force him into demonstrating magic.

Susan // Ravenclaw

Yeah, I can too. I've read a fanfic where Draco has a twin brother that's a squib that they keep locked in the dungeons and no one knows he exists. (It actually kind of reminded me of that Simpson's Treehouse of Horror ep where Bart has a siamese twin.)

Jackie/Gryffindor

Sounds interesting! Do you have a link?

Delfeus / Slytherin

Yep. Here 'tis. http://www.fictionalley.org/authors/sai_du_chickens/TOS01a.html

It's called "Their Only Son" by Sai du Chickens, who writes some good stuff.

Jackie//Gryffindor

Ooooh that was good *chills*

Susan // Ravenclaw

Thank you! I'm getting lots of intersting fic recs here.

Delfeus / Slytherin

I can't see all families doing so, even of old pureblooded ones. Perhaps some.

Delfeus / Slytherin

I can see the Black's doing it too.

Susan // Ravenclaw

Hmm. Yeah, agreed.

Delfeus / Slytherin

True! Me too. If it possible to determine somehow before birth.

Delfeus / Slytherin

I think in a society where a woman is free to inflict pustules and tentacles on a man, equality is close to guaranteed. Hogwarts was founded by an equal split of men and women, so it's osbviously never discriminated in that way. Still, we do see some definite masculine bias, but that could be J.K.R.'s modern muggle socialization sneaking through.

It's funny, I always thought of witches as probably having the ultimate in contraception, which would prevent the need for most birth control. I can't see a society where women learn to be self-sufficient via Hogwarts preventing the creation of a contraception spell. Witches everywhere would put their feet down on some very delicate male body parts.

Moon Faery//Slytherin

I think it's definitely JKR's own bias sneaking in, which is sad, considering she's a woman. *sigh*

Jackie//Gryffindor

Well, the things we are taught show in our writing... it's sometimes difficult to be rid of them.

Delfeus / Slytherin

Heh! Good points there.

Delfeus / Slytherin